Dealership Not Taking Appointments - lack of workers says service manager

1971demon · Jun 30, 2021

T mann...yer chromosomes aren't in order for me to pay yer rent...but on a side note...my wife wont give me a rematch anytime soon...we have a deposit on a new Z06 for 2022..but now she was told the release might not be till 2023...

T_Trahan44 · Jun 30, 2021

1971demon said:

You trading in the current c8? Cmon. It’s barely broken in! I just found out today the local track got bought up and they’re working to get it all back in order. Hopefully next season will be a green light… but I’ve gotta get a car built by then. Might even end up building a drag truck out of this 78 f150. We’ll see.

1971demon · Jun 30, 2021

T_Trahan44 said:

Yeah...she wants to go faster...and says the black is a pita to keep clean...she's hoping for a gun metal grey...I've drivin the car maybe 4 times in the past year..it's an awesome car...but its just not me...I'd jump over 10 C8's to get to my HC or Demon...

1971demon · Jun 30, 2021

1971demon said:

Put a crate 427 in that 150..and do it right...

T_Trahan44 · Jun 30, 2021

1971demon said:

I like the look of the C8s. But I’ve driven one and it wasn’t up to snuff for me. A bit cramped. And I’m not a big guy.

1971demon said:

I was looking at a crate 302. A 427 is out of my budget. I’ve got a 351M that I can build. I have the knowledge. It’s just finding parts to build a decent 351M.

Illegal_Demon · Jun 30, 2021

T_Trahan44 said:

Sounds like you need to have a frank discussion with your immediate supervisor asap. Companies (esp big ones) will take advantage if they can get away with it. Now that you know what you know, don't let them. Today you have leverage with your experience and a very tight labor market. Rooting for you!

Illegal_Demon · Jun 30, 2021

1971demon said:

Labor unions having actual power? Is it 1971 again??

T_Trahan44 · Jun 30, 2021

Illegal_Demon said:

I’ve already set up something with my HR and if things don’t end up changing, I’m going to begin actively looking for a new job.

Illegal_Demon · Jul 1, 2021

Finface said:

Magnified and All,

The steady good paying jobs in manufacturing that Americans enjoyed beginning in WW II, and for almost three decades afterwards, I see as a historical abnormality that is in a protracted correction mode. From 1941 to about 1975 our companies sold goods and services to a rebuilding world. We loaned Europe money with the Marshall Plan. Our cities and factories were intact, most of the world's was in ruins. We had natural resources, including oil. We had an economic system which enabled creation of wealth and workers eager to share in it.

All those advantages gradually eroded as other countries, and their workers (to one degree or another) began to compete and build wealth. We became the consumers of cheaply made electronics and cars instead of exporters. The problem for US workers, and managements, is that the cost basis to manufacture competitive products here became a lot higher than relocating factories elsewhere. Globalization policies offered - dictated really - the stark economic reality that to stay in business this cost basis imbalance had to be corrected.

There are only two ways to do this, unless you're willing to create trade barriers like tariffs and embargoes which too often backfire, and even set the stage for more wars. The one I've always wanted to see is the rest of the world adopting worker protections like we have enacted here that would raise the cost basis overseas. Compensation here is a blend of pay and benefits that doesn't exist in most emerging nations. Tax policies are a blend of incentives - carrots and sticks - to support what has come to be called American Capitalism. Benefits like unemployment insurance, worker's compensation for injuries on the job, pensions (now being replaced with 401k plans), paid vacation time, sick leave and medical insurance - even the 40 hour work week and paid holidays - have all put a human face on unfettered capitalism's uncaring bottom line. We need only look back 100 to 150 years ago to see how grim life was for the average hourly worker. It is a fact that American trade policies in the form of NAFTA did not better protect our workers and fully embraced the economic reality that our factories would relocate.

The other factor at play in addressing the cost basis imbalance is what we're seeing happening. American wages and standard of living gradually erodes - falls back to better compare with those costs overseas. The factories and jobs come back to within our physical borders only when the cost of making them here becomes competitive with the cost of making them there (including transportation costs, etc). This is why manufacturing wages here have stagnated for so long - except in the areas where we maintained a technological advantage. Even that is changing with China putting a rover on Mars a few months ago.

That's the backdrop - the biggest factor in the loss of jobs and the erosion of benefits for the lowest paid workers where it has occurred in the last 40 years - but even more recently job losses and the downward pressure on compensation everywhere is complicated by innovations in robotics, and now increasingly by AI. The response during the pandemic by managements is to look for ways to do the job without humans. Many jobs will never come back.

I started this thread because I found it surprising that a major car dealership can't hire enough workers to make appointments for service. How bare bones an operation is that? I appreciate the comments by owners of businesses and those personally feeling the pinch of how managements are trying to attract new hires with better wages. Inflation is around the corner, if not already here.

A very well-thought-out post. Economics often is a combination of many factors evolving over 1000s of miles taking decades to materialize. Unfortunately, people want quick scapegoat answers with clear villains and saviors. Look at our highly divisive political climate for evidence of this. As you nicely illustrated, life is nuanced and is rarely black and white.

1971demon · Jul 1, 2021

Illegal_Demon said:

Surely you jest...labor unions get politicians elected..they can shut down companies..they can protect employees from disciplinary action by employers...teachers unions have more power than you can imagine...try to get an incompetent teacher removed...1971 was nothing compared to the power of labor unions today...

Illegal_Demon · Jul 1, 2021

1971demon said:

Of course there are areas where unions are still powerful. Municipal government/education/law enforcement are such areas, but surely you jest that the power of unions is stronger now than it was in 1971. Union participation in the workforce is near all-time lows with big corporations doing all they can to squelch workers trying to change that. We need balance in the workforce to be sure but without unions, we will go back to unfettered capitalism and the 1880s worker-barron era. Kids working in coal mines anyone?

Screen Shot 2021-06-30 at 11.22.16 PM.png

1971demon · Jul 1, 2021

Illegal_Demon said:

Of course there are areas where unions are still powerful. Municipal government/education/law enforcement are such areas, but surely you jest that the power of unions is stronger now than it was in 1971. Union participation in the workforce is near all-time lows with big corporations doing all they can to squelch workers trying to change that. We need balance in the workforce to be sure but without unions, we will go back to unfettered capitalism and the 1880s worker-barron era. Kids working in coal mines anyone?

View attachment 47976

So you don't think the UAW is as strong as it was in the 70's....

1971demon · Jul 1, 2021

1971demon said:

I cant address the validity of that attachment or how those numbers were compiled..( I find them highly suspect)..and as a side bar...professional sports..unions were non existent in 71...as were most Police and Fire unions...I'm by no means a fan of Labor unions...(they are out of control..and not always operating with the best interest of the rank and file of its members)....

1971demon · Jul 1, 2021

Illegal_Demon said:

Kids working in coal mines???...(now that's funny)...try and get kids to do their homework..or clean their rooms..or even make a bed...much less chores....and you think (wait maybe I read that wrong)...you did say coal mine right???

Illegal_Demon · Jul 1, 2021

1971demon said:

Never said anything about UAW. The graph speaks for itself, however. Overall, it's an undeniable fact that union participation and influence in the US is way down from decades past.

And if u didn't like the previous plot, no problem. Here's one of many samples available with corresponding facts, figures and a write-up. If your contention is that union membership and influence has NOT gone down since the 1960s, I'm sorry to say the facts don't support that contention (and that's putting it nicely, lol).

https://usafacts.org/articles/labor-union-membership/

Illegal_Demon · Jul 1, 2021

1971demon said:

Dude...u are funny...Tongue and cheek with the kids..guess u missed the smiley face I had in there afterward...maybe it got lost with your 4,229 emoji post above!

Finface · Jul 1, 2021

1971demon said:

I'm glad you and Illegaldemon brought up labor unions. I want to push back, like Illegal, that unions today are not more powerful than they were in 1971. I haven't looked into the emergence of police and firefighter unions, but I do know that FDR, while supporting unions in general, did not support unionized government employees. I largely agree with FDR on government unions BTW. Essential government services should not be held hostage for government worker demands - and that goes for cops and firefighters too. Rather, all elected governments should offer competitive careers to police, firefighters, office workers - all of them - to attract and keep workers. They need to have impartial disciplinary boards. Ultimately the ability to attract and keep police and other government workers rests on the democratic process working - on we citizens valuing those jobs and electing leaders who do too.

I was a member of a pilot union for 30 years and saw both the good and the bad sides of collective bargaining. In profitable times and during an awful bankruptcy - numerous up and down times by airlines. But by far I saw the benefit to me, one of thousands of hourly workers, and my fellow pilots, in the form of legally negotiated and enforced pay increases (trying to keep abreast of inflation - a battle every time), holding on in a slow losing battle to medical and retirement benefits, and a huge benefit - a grievance process to enforce the contract and review (and sometimes stop contract violations) any disciplinary actions contemplated by the company. In "At Will" states and at non-unionized companies where unions are legal, workers can be fired for any reason except those specified as illegal reasons like obvious racial discrimination, etc. Even with that language on the books it isn't hard to make a case against a worker you don't like and to get away with firing them. This "you're fired!" reality often leads to tryanny by mid-level bosses who ingratiate themselves with top management. The flip side of a non-union workforce is you, believing you're doing a better job than the guy next to you, can appeal individually to management to give you a better pay rate. Maybe some people like that freedom, but it comes with risks. It takes a dispassionate look at history beginning after the Civil War to see how and why unions are not nearly the force they were 50 years ago. I'd also like to say unions cannot overcome economic realities like globalization, bankruptcies and poor management decisions, or greed, that lead to downsizing (mergers, loss of business) and outright company failures. I saw instances where pilots were terminated - the union couldn't save them (and often didn't want to, but HAD to present the pilot's case by law) - because the facts warranted termination. Unions or not, this is what should happen, and no one is above the law.

All those things I mentioned about our cost basis here being higher than in emerging nations (and China, now a global economic superpower) - our work rule benefits, safety net for injuries and economic bust cycles, the historically high pay after WW II - all of that started their slow climb into our daily life with collective bargaining efforts. Over there in low cost basis nations unions are illegal, and under authoritarian rule will always remain illegal. This, to me, is a sad fact of modern life, and, I'd argue, the main reason American workers will continue to experience downward pressure on their pay and benefits. In many industries it is a slow race to the bottom here, a very slow rise in standards of living for the majority of workers over there. At my company another work group had a national union make several attempts to get our workers to vote to unionize (all narrowly failed). During discussions in which one of my co-workers would complain about dues, or bring up another thing they didn't like about unions (usually not an informed objection) I'd make the point that if workers at other airlines did not pay their dues to collectively bargain for pay raises (and fight for all the rest of the benefits), then their pay would never have been as good as it was. My management looked at the gains unionized workers made elsewhere, then decided what they needed to do to keep pace to keep the union efforts at bay. Were the workers who voted not to become unionized, and to not pay very modest dues, freeloaders riding on the coattails of other workers doing their exact same job? Or proud free marketers believing their pay and benefits were bestowed upon them by enlightened management? It is very rare that gains by hourly workers happened in a union vacuum.

So history also informs me, in conjunction with my experiences as a union member getting to vote for my union representatives, and knowing them personally and hearing about the negotiating process, that the "free market" (a whole 'nuther subject in the context of one-sided corporate welfare and pro-business laws - don't get riled up I'd agree not all were, or are, bad) overseen by managers always seeking to reduce costs and remain competitive would never have achieved the quality of life that unions achieved. Unions, guilds, collective pressure by workers made modern America tolerable. There really were children working in coal mines. Child labor laws here were also a union triumph, along with other social forces. In Pakistan today small children weave carpets by hand that sell for thousands of dollars - and are compensated poverty wages - if compensated at all. It was a bitter, bitter fight to enact laws which eventually allowed for orderly collective bargaining here. Andrew Carnegie, steel tycoon while living in Scotland for two years, ordered his managers to resist unionization by all means necessary - which wound up being the Pittsburg police firing live rounds into picketers and killing a bunch of them. I would agree it is a fine line between violating private property rights of factory owners and peaceful picketing, but that episode in history (one among many) speaks to how hard it was for unions to gain legitimacy.

I really could go on a very long time making the case that without unions we'd still be in dismal unfettered capitalist work environments where if you slipped in the coal mine and chopped off my hand with your pickaxe they'd just drag me out onto the ash heap of humanity and yell, "Next!", and a desperate-for-work person standing in line would eagerly leap forward. I appreciate your true statement that sometimes unions can be too strong, can have corrupt leaderships, can be too disruptive - unions are comprised of people after all - but all our lives, unionized workers or not - would be drastically worse without the labor movement succeeding. The bad things about unions can be mitigated through various means - elections, work stoppage limitations. They need to always be legal, with appropriate boundaries and transparencies.

I'll close by saying something germaine to the original question - where do we as a nation go from here? If there really is a labor shortage then managements are going to have to offer better pay and benefits. If government during this pandemic has temporarily been too generous in giving away free money (massive national debt conjured up from thin air with the stroke of a keyboard by the FED) and that income is keeping workers home, then when those benefits run out we'll see people coming back to work - hopefully - instead of opting to be homeless. If robotics and AI are permanently eliminating millions of jobs (as some economists say) then we as a nation will have to contend with millions, maybe hundreds of millions, of people standing around without any income.

History also teaches us that without income, without hope, without a stake in the system, without anything to lose, frustrated angry people will rise up and seek to tear down society. They did it many times 50 - 100 years ago believing utopian communism was the answer, which it never was and never can be. I sure hope we can sort all this out - figure out how to tax robot-earned income as the tax base shrinks, use international diplomacy to enhance human and worker's rights overseas - to help our work force avoid the downward pressures being exerted on them.

Thanks for chiming in - and I hope some more thoughtful points are made in this thread. To bring it back to the dealership...does anyone agree with me that a skilled worker shortage would be better handled by simply taking fewer appointments so the work could be done, rather than going strictly with first come, first served?

Best,

Finface

Magnified · Jul 1, 2021

sorry guys still swamped... not holding up my part of the discussion

DGatzby · Jul 1, 2021

Finface said:

I'm glad you and Illegaldemon brought up labor unions. I want to push back, like Illegal, that unions today are not more powerful than they were in 1971. I haven't looked into the emergence of police and firefighter unions, but I do know that FDR, while supporting unions in general, did not support unionized government employees. I largely agree with FDR on government unions BTW. Essential government services should not be held hostage for government worker demands - and that goes for cops and firefighters too. Rather, all elected governments should offer competitive careers to police, firefighters, office workers - all of them - to attract and keep workers. They need to have impartial disciplinary boards. Ultimately the ability to attract and keep police and other government workers rests on the democratic process working - on we citizens valuing those jobs and electing leaders who do too.

I was a member of a pilot union for 30 years and saw both the good and the bad sides of collective bargaining. In profitable times and during an awful bankruptcy - numerous up and down times by airlines. But by far I saw the benefit to me, one of thousands of hourly workers, and my fellow pilots, in the form of legally negotiated and enforced pay increases (trying to keep abreast of inflation - a battle every time), holding on in a slow losing battle to medical and retirement benefits, and a huge benefit - a grievance process to enforce the contract and review (and sometimes stop contract violations) any disciplinary actions contemplated by the company. In "At Will" states and at non-unionized companies where unions are legal, workers can be fired for any reason except those specified as illegal reasons like obvious racial discrimination, etc. Even with that language on the books it isn't hard to make a case against a worker you don't like and to get away with firing them. This "you're fired!" reality often leads to tryanny by mid-level bosses who ingratiate themselves with top management. The flip side of a non-union workforce is you, believing you're doing a better job than the guy next to you, can appeal individually to management to give you a better pay rate. Maybe some people like that freedom, but it comes with risks. It takes a dispassionate look at history beginning after the Civil War to see how and why unions are not nearly the force they were 50 years ago. I'd also like to say unions cannot overcome economic realities like globalization, bankruptcies and poor management decisions, or greed, that lead to downsizing (mergers, loss of business) and outright company failures. I saw instances where pilots were terminated - the union couldn't save them (and often didn't want to, but HAD to present the pilot's case by law) - because the facts warranted termination. Unions or not, this is what should happen, and no one is above the law.

All those things I mentioned about our cost basis here being higher than in emerging nations (and China, now a global economic superpower) - our work rule benefits, safety net for injuries and economic bust cycles, the historically high pay after WW II - all of that started their slow climb into our daily life with collective bargaining efforts. Over there in low cost basis nations unions are illegal, and under authoritarian rule will always remain illegal. This, to me, is a sad fact of modern life, and, I'd argue, the main reason American workers will continue to experience downward pressure on their pay and benefits. In many industries it is a slow race to the bottom here, a very slow rise in standards of living for the majority of workers over there. At my company another work group had a national union make several attempts to get our workers to vote to unionize (all narrowly failed). During discussions in which one of my co-workers would complain about dues, or bring up another thing they didn't like about unions (usually not an informed objection) I'd make the point that if workers at other airlines did not pay their dues to collectively bargain for pay raises (and fight for all the rest of the benefits), then their pay would never have been as good as it was. My management looked at the gains unionized workers made elsewhere, then decided what they needed to do to keep pace to keep the union efforts at bay. Were the workers who voted not to become unionized, and to not pay very modest dues, freeloaders riding on the coattails of other workers doing their exact same job? Or proud free marketers believing their pay and benefits were bestowed upon them by enlightened management? It is very rare that gains by hourly workers happened in a union vacuum.

So history also informs me, in conjunction with my experiences as a union member getting to vote for my union representatives, and knowing them personally and hearing about the negotiating process, that the "free market" (a whole 'nuther subject in the context of one-sided corporate welfare and pro-business laws - don't get riled up I'd agree not all were, or are, bad) overseen by managers always seeking to reduce costs and remain competitive would never have achieved the quality of life that unions achieved. Unions, guilds, collective pressure by workers made modern America tolerable. There really were children working in coal mines. Child labor laws here were also a union triumph, along with other social forces. In Pakistan today small children weave carpets by hand that sell for thousands of dollars - and are compensated poverty wages - if compensated at all. It was a bitter, bitter fight to enact laws which eventually allowed for orderly collective bargaining here. Andrew Carnegie, steel tycoon while living in Scotland for two years, ordered his managers to resist unionization by all means necessary - which wound up being the Pittsburg police firing live rounds into picketers and killing a bunch of them. I would agree it is a fine line between violating private property rights of factory owners and peaceful picketing, but that episode in history (one among many) speaks to how hard it was for unions to gain legitimacy.

I really could go on a very long time making the case that without unions we'd still be in dismal unfettered capitalist work environments where if you slipped in the coal mine and chopped off my hand with your pickaxe they'd just drag me out onto the ash heap of humanity and yell, "Next!", and a desperate-for-work person standing in line would eagerly leap forward. I appreciate your true statement that sometimes unions can be too strong, can have corrupt leaderships, can be too disruptive - unions are comprised of people after all - but all our lives, unionized workers or not - would be drastically worse without the labor movement succeeding. The bad things about unions can be mitigated through various means - elections, work stoppage limitations. They need to always be legal, with appropriate boundaries and transparencies.

I'll close by saying something germaine to the original question - where do we as a nation go from here? If there really is a labor shortage then managements are going to have to offer better pay and benefits. If government during this pandemic has temporarily been too generous in giving away free money (massive national debt conjured up from thin air with the stroke of a keyboard by the FED) and that income is keeping workers home, then when those benefits run out we'll see people coming back to work - hopefully - instead of opting to be homeless. If robotics and AI are permanently eliminating millions of jobs (as some economists say) then we as a nation will have to contend with millions, maybe hundreds of millions, of people standing around without any income.

History also teaches us that without income, without hope, without a stake in the system, without anything to lose, frustrated angry people will rise up and seek to tear down society. They did it many times 50 - 100 years ago believing utopian communism was the answer, which it never was and never can be. I sure hope we can sort all this out - figure out how to tax robot-earned income as the tax base shrinks, use international diplomacy to enhance human and worker's rights overseas - to help our work force avoid the downward pressures being exerted on them.

Thanks for chiming in - and I hope some more thoughtful points are made in this thread. To bring it back to the dealership...does anyone agree with me that a skilled worker shortage would be better handled by simply taking fewer appointments so the work could be done, rather than going strictly with first come, first served?

Best,

Finface

What is happening is all of us more “senior” guys who have turned wrenches since the 60’s are either retired or dead. The young ones can only work phone apps and program computers.

I know the guy who worked on my Redeye was nearly as old as me and knew his shit well, and I was happy about that.

Stormtrooper1320 · Jul 1, 2021

DGatzby said:

Yep....ran into the same thing in aviation. The younger ones did not know how to troubleshoot problems. They could shotgun parts all day long....the same part...over and over....or they could look for "trouble codes" and run "self-tests", but if the problem wasn't fixed after that....forget it. They were completely lost on the older aircraft.

I see the same thing in the auto industry now. If there's no "codes" they don't know what to do after that.

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