Virginia State Police Get New Mustang Pursuit Vehicles

[2ndAmend]

Shouldn't they be driving the Mach E???

 

[RetiredFirefighter]

A 2006-2014 LAPD study reported that arrests were made in 82% of car chases (the state average was 68%).

Other studies show innocent bystanders sometimes are injured/die as the result of car chases.
I've seen chase vids that exceed 130 mph, with pit maneuvers being conducted at over 100 mph.

I'm split on this, because if there's a blanket "no chase" rule (as some departments have adopted) that means criminals know they'll probably escape.
But I don't want innocent bystanders hurt either.

That leads us to the 2nd Amendment defense of "guns don't kill, people kill".
Applied to cop chases "pursuits don't kill, criminals who won't stop for LEO's kill".

 

[2ndAmend]

The justification for a high speed pursuit would be when the fleeing car poses a greater danger to the public by being left alone compared to chasing him. Chasing him will likely cause him to be more reckless, plus the increased danger when there are 2 or more high speed cars rather than one.

With all the license plate readers, ezpass, your cell phone pinging towers, and your car spying on you, they will eventually catch the guy without a chase, probably at home sleeping it off. It is possible issuing Mustangs to the police increases the danger to the public.

 

[MikeD1]

That leads us to the 2nd Amendment defense of "guns don't kill, people kill".
Applied to cop chases "pursuits don't kill, criminals who won't stop for LEO's kill".

That is a faulty bit of logic ! Guns are an inanimate object and can do nothing unless a person pulls the trigger.

A car chase is a choice made by a person (the cop), it really doesn't matter what the perp did or didn't do, the pursuer as the choice/final say & full control over how events unfold.

 

[RetiredFirefighter]

That is a faulty bit of logic ! Guns are an inanimate object and can do nothing unless a person pulls the trigger.

A car chase is a choice made by a person (the cop), it really doesn't matter what the perp did or didn't do, the pursuer as the choice/final say & full control over how events unfold.

That is a bit of defective reasoning ! Cars are also inanimate objects and can do nothing unless a person fails to stop for LEO's and a chase ensues.

A shooting is a choice made by a person (the perp) it really doesn't matter what the cop did/didn't do, the shooter has the choice/final say & full control over how events unfold.

It seems there's a violation of "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" in your ananlysis.

 

[MikeD1]

That is a bit of defective reasoning ! Cars are also inanimate objects and can do nothing unless a person fails to stop for LEO's and a chase ensues.

A shooting is a choice made by a person (the perp) it really doesn't matter what the cop did/didn't do, the shooter has the choice/final say & full control over how events unfold.

It seems there's a violation of "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" in your ananlysis.

You made my point !

The gun didn't shoot anyone - the perp made a choice & did. Same for the chase - the perp didn't chase himself, the cop made a decision that resulted in the chase ensuing & continuing. He didn't HAVE to pursue or continue the chase when things started to go sideways.

 

[1971demon]

Watched a bunch of those, seems to me the Ark. boys are just itching for a chance to cut loose on their Chargers !!

They do seem to pursue well beyond what is safe for the innocent citizens that just happen to be 'in the way'.

IMO, if they really want the dude that bad, just put a chopper in the air & trail from a safe distance and de-escalate. Guy will stop sooner or later & they can safely nab him then.

FL just passed some new laws that will just make more of this happen IMO. The cranked up the fines for speeding and 'aggressive' driving and created a whole new category of 'super speeder' if you are 50+ mph over. Mandatory fines, jail, loss of license & forfeit of vehicle. I'm guessing a large # of these chases involve a stolen car anyway, so they don't car how trashed it gets attempting to run and the forfeit has no teeth. The other penalties will just make running seem more worth the risk.

1987...my friend lost his 50 yr.old dad in a high speed chase...perp hit him broadside goin through a light...perp perished as well...all over no tail light violation.....senseless...family still suffers

 

[1971demon]

That is a faulty bit of logic ! Guns are an inanimate object and can do nothing unless a person pulls the trigger.

A car chase is a choice made by a person (the cop), it really doesn't matter what the perp did or didn't do, the pursuer as the choice/final say & full control over how events unfold.

This can be a highly charged...highly emotional topic...I can guarantee you...if anyone on here got that call that a family member perished in such an incident....your perspective would change...I was with my friend when he got the call bout his dad...think I'm wrong....the next time your wife goes to the store...or your daughter or son drive to work...and God forbid you get that call....YOUR LIFE WILL CHANGE FOREVER...think about that the next time they leave the house....then explain to me the value of Law enforcement when these tragic things happen

 

[Deano]

If violators are allowed to continue, crimes they may have committed are not discovered. The other possibility is they will continue to escalate their actions and may cause more dangerous situations in the future.
It is and has always been, and continues to be a, "dammed if you do, dammed if you don't" situation.

 

[1971demon]

If violators are allowed to continue, crimes they may have committed are not discovered. The other possibility is they will continue to escalate their actions and may cause more dangerous situations in the future.
It is and has always been, and continues to be a, "dammed if you do, dammed if you don't" situation.

Till...your wife is killed

 

[RetiredFirefighter]

You made my point !

The gun didn't shoot anyone - the perp made a choice & did. Same for the chase - the perp didn't chase himself, the cop made a decision that resulted in the chase ensuing & continuing. He didn't HAVE to pursue or continue the chase when things started to go sideways.

You proved my theory !

Principles from a course I read on "The Fundamentals of Moral Theology" (Msgr. William Smith, highlighted in RED) helps bring clarity.
Before that, let's first break down some simple concrete parallels:

The car is as inanimate object.✅
The gun is an inanimate object.✅

Someone who commits a crime with a car provokes a legal response.✅
Someone who commits a crime with a gun provokes a legal response.✅

The resulting action by LEO's began from the Moral Evil of the person who broke the law with a car, which can bring about suffering of innocent bystanders.✅
The resulting action by LEO's began from the Moral Evil of the person who broke the law with a gun, which can bring about suffering of innocent bystanders.✅

This now brings us to the principle of "Double Effect" which tries to avoid two extremes:

• One extreme says “As long as our intentions are good, it doesn’t matter what happens"
• The other extreme says "We can not involve ourselves in anything that might possibly result in a bad consequence"

Where things get more involved is the "Proportion" rule to "Double Effect":

"PROPORTION - there must be true proportion for placing a cause where evil is foreseen, but not intended."

Additionally, "Moral Evils" can never be justified under any circumstance (attempting to apprehend a criminal is clearly not a "Moral Evil")

"The Moral Object is the key, because that is intrinsic to action. The circumstances that surround the Moral Object are “extrinsic”, the personal intention of the agent that impels it or places it is also “extrinsic” to the action. It is applied common sense."

"We have said: 'Never directly kill an innocent person'. Positively, this is fulfilled within reasonable and proportionate limits. That’s why we have to go case by case to see whether or not something is an ordinary means or an extraordinary means."

So my conclusion on this topic:
- LEO's response to a criminal's use of a gun or a criminal's use of a car are the same
- in both examples LEO's are attempting the "moral good" of apprehending the criminal
- the rule of proportionality applies to both

 

[MikeD1]

In my view LE engaging in a chase that has the perp taking more & more risk (to others) is almost never justifiable. Speeding, broken light, no seatbelt, failure to stop are not things that warrant the possibility of endangering the public at large. With all the cameras & surveillance crap around these days, it's not hard to find them in a few hours and make the arrest. If they perp is actively endangering others prior to engaging (slamming into other cars, shooting at ppl) then yeah, they need to pursue & end it as soon as they can.

I've seen so many of these chases where things just spiral out of control with the cops taking chances going around traffic, blowing thru intersections etc. causing the perp to ramp-up from speeding to dangerous passing, going the wrong way on the road, blowing lights attempting to get away. In many of these the pursuing LE clearly does not have the driving skills they should really have before beginning a high speed chase (typically city PD & sheriffs - state boys seem better trained in this area).

Here's a local example of the 'cowboy cop' mentality that ended in the deaths of innocent ppl. The woman (wandering around a mall parking lot) was able to steal the cruiser from a stupid deputy that was not paying attention & the chase ensued, mostly on a rural 2 lane. Eventually she lost control, & hit a PU head-on, killing herself (no loss there) + the couple in the truck & severely injuring their passenger.

The Sheriff's attitude:
"The moment she did that, she was a threat to human life. For just merely getting in that car," Sheriff Woods told WESH.

She was a threat to human life because she was able to trick a dumb cop into leaving his cruiser vulnerable ???? And they HAD to chase her ( I know they track their vehicles, so she couldn't really get far). I think not - this was totally avoidable if not for the cowboy cop 'she can't steal our car' mentality I see so much of around here.

 

[1971demon]

In my view LE engaging in a chase that has the perp taking more & more risk (to others) is almost never justifiable. Speeding, broken light, no seatbelt, failure to stop are not things that warrant the possibility of endangering the public at large. With all the cameras & surveillance crap around these days, it's not hard to find them in a few hours and make the arrest. If they perp is actively endangering others prior to engaging (slamming into other cars, shooting at ppl) then yeah, they need to pursue & end it as soon as they can.

I've seen so many of these chases where things just spiral out of control with the cops taking chances going around traffic, blowing thru intersections etc. causing the perp to ramp-up from speeding to dangerous passing, going the wrong way on the road, blowing lights attempting to get away. In many of these the pursuing LE clearly does not have the driving skills they should really have before beginning a high speed chase (typically city PD & sheriffs - state boys seem better trained in this area).

Here's a local example of the 'cowboy cop' mentality that ended in the deaths of innocent ppl. The woman (wandering around a mall parking lot) was able to steal the cruiser from a stupid deputy that was not paying attention & the chase ensued, mostly on a rural 2 lane. Eventually she lost control, & hit a PU head-on, killing herself (no loss there) + the couple in the truck & severely injuring their passenger.

The Sheriff's attitude:
"The moment she did that, she was a threat to human life. For just merely getting in that car," Sheriff Woods told WESH.

She was a threat to human life because she was able to trick a dumb cop into leaving his cruiser vulnerable ???? And they HAD to chase her ( I know they track their vehicles, so she couldn't really get far). I think not - this was totally avoidable if not for the cowboy cop 'she can't steal our car' mentality I see so much of around here.

I am a big proponent of LE...(got a ton of friends who are cops)...but these long protracted high speed chases bother me..(.there are better ways)...EVERYBODY is @ risk...even the cop...it;s sensless...yet we hear of them over..and over..I understand the argument you just can't let them go....I can tell you this...it doesn't really hit home..when the victims are just names on the news...when it's your wife..one of your children...enforcing the rule of law...will do Nothing to ease the loss you will endure forever....