• Sign Up! To view all forums and unlock additional cool features

    Welcome to the #1 Dodge, Jeep and RAM Forum dedicated to FCA owners and enthusiasts. Register for an account, it's free and it's easy, so don't hesitate to join the SRT Forum today!


WINDAGE. Not a problem anymore?.

coolblue

1000 Posts Club
Founding Member
Donating Member
Member ID
#1172
Messages
1,577
Reactions
2,695
Likes
162
City
Long Island
State
NY
Country
United States
Vehicle
2019 Redeye
#1
Ok, first lets get the fart jokes out of the way...…...waiting. (Older members must have a ton in reserve. Lol). I'm prepared for the deluge.
Now lets start with the real SEXY question I'm sure is on everyone's mind and will break all thread post records. What ever happened to oil windage being a problem? I mean before I got into the Gen III hemi and was building small and BB Chevy's, oil windage was a real concern. Meaning it was bad on many levels.
1-It would rob horsepower by causing a "rope" of oil around the crank as it was spinning(belief was on average it could rob 25hp or more above 6000rpm).
2- It would get very aeriated and lose consistency and subsequent oil pressure (scoring up bearings and a multitude of friction/burning up problems) and
3- Would cause the rings to get over whelmed and oil bypass at high rpm (lowering octane, fouling plugs and causing huge blow-by past breathers )
Guy's would do all they could to prevent the sh*# storm of oil from whipping around inside the engine (i.e. oil restrictors, crank scrapers etc.). Now the gen III has oil SQUIRTERS! which ADD to this oil storm. Don't all those other things still exist?
I know todays engines have higher silicon pistons and tighter clearances and synthetic oil. But does that make all that other stuff go away???
 


Hunter

8000 Posts Club
Staff Team
Founding Member
Premium Account
U.S. Army Veteran
Donating Member
HFCOTM
Member ID
#957
Messages
8,968
Reactions
23,645
Likes
402
City
Moss Point
State
MS
Country
United States
Vehicle
2019 Challenger Hellcat
HFCOTM
View Images
#2
Question is way above my pay grade.
 


McLovin

Active Member
Founding Member
Member ID
#1024
Messages
469
Reactions
1,468
Likes
117
City
Syracuse
State
NY
Country
United States
Vehicle
2015 Challenger Hellcat
#3
Here for the fart jokes...
 


16GoManGoHC2

3000 Posts Club
Founding Member
9 Second Best E/T
Member ID
#1139
Messages
3,286
Reactions
7,766
Likes
252
City
Nanticoke
State
PA
Country
United States
Vehicle
2016 Challenger He’ll Cat
#4
Most Oil pan gaskets these days on performance engines incorporate windage trays, the Hellcat and Demon engines have such already

F8339434-E0E0-461B-A2DA-ECB5726C352D.png
 


Last edited:
OP
coolblue

coolblue

1000 Posts Club
Founding Member
Donating Member
Member ID
#1172
Messages
1,577
Reactions
2,695
Likes
162
City
Long Island
State
NY
Country
United States
Vehicle
2019 Redeye
Thread Starter #5
Question is way above my pay grade.
Geez HUNTER, could've contributed a fart joke. :LOL:. Seriously,Thanks for the look see.
 


OP
coolblue

coolblue

1000 Posts Club
Founding Member
Donating Member
Member ID
#1172
Messages
1,577
Reactions
2,695
Likes
162
City
Long Island
State
NY
Country
United States
Vehicle
2019 Redeye
Thread Starter #6
Most Oil pan gaskets these days on performance engines incorporate windage trays, the Hellcat and Demon engines have such already

View attachment 1033
Mike is that you from the other site? Is that all you got? Cause then NO ONE has an in depth answer and I'm really screwed for info. LOL. The squirters put it in the mix above the pan (and the Demon doubles down) so although the tray helps a bunch, it's inescapable the oil getting caught up in the rotating assembly. Just was thinking about this for awhile ,don't know why. Prob part of my OCD. That's really a good picture. You must've googled a few to find it and took some time, thank you very much for the response. Tony.
 


16GoManGoHC2

3000 Posts Club
Founding Member
9 Second Best E/T
Member ID
#1139
Messages
3,286
Reactions
7,766
Likes
252
City
Nanticoke
State
PA
Country
United States
Vehicle
2016 Challenger He’ll Cat
#7
Yes it’s me :)

No, only took a few seconds to find

Grab a beer and Watch this on a big TV


With cranks being deep in the block anymore make it harder to scrape them clear of oil anymore but engineers still do a good job at it.
 


Hunter

8000 Posts Club
Staff Team
Founding Member
Premium Account
U.S. Army Veteran
Donating Member
HFCOTM
Member ID
#957
Messages
8,968
Reactions
23,645
Likes
402
City
Moss Point
State
MS
Country
United States
Vehicle
2019 Challenger Hellcat
HFCOTM
View Images
#8
See. Learn something new every day here.
 


16GoManGoHC2

3000 Posts Club
Founding Member
9 Second Best E/T
Member ID
#1139
Messages
3,286
Reactions
7,766
Likes
252
City
Nanticoke
State
PA
Country
United States
Vehicle
2016 Challenger He’ll Cat
#9
All that oil is needed squirted up on those pistons or they’d probably melt lol. Don’t worry about windage HP loss, it’s scavenged out of there pretty well by the stock trays and is taking a pile of heat away with it
 


OP
coolblue

coolblue

1000 Posts Club
Founding Member
Donating Member
Member ID
#1172
Messages
1,577
Reactions
2,695
Likes
162
City
Long Island
State
NY
Country
United States
Vehicle
2019 Redeye
Thread Starter #10
Yes it’s me :)

No, only took a few seconds to find

Grab a beer and Watch this on a big TV


With cranks being deep in the block anymore make it harder to scrape them clear of oil anymore but engineers still do a good job at it.
Saw that a few weeks ago from another post and thanked the member who posted it (I think it was Mark W it might've been Mark P). It is an excellent vid with great info. Again thank you. Going to breakfast with wifey. Have a great Labor Day weekend.
 


stonewall

500 Posts Club
Founding Member
Member ID
#1043
Messages
787
Reactions
1,621
Likes
132
City
Conway
State
AR
Country
United States
Vehicle
2017 Dodge Hellcat Challenger
#11
Pretty well answered. The 0w40w oil is like water. so it also is less likely to cling to the crank.
 


Member ID
#1720
Messages
320
Reactions
284
Likes
37
City
Detroit
State
Non-US
Country
Afghanistan
#12
Pretty well answered. The 0w40w oil is like water. so it also is less likely to cling to the crank.
I have run straight 60 in a car before. It felt like it was wading through muck just to rev it up with no load. I can definitely echo that the newer, low-viscosity synthetics are the cat's meow.

BUT, one of the desirable properties of oil is its ability to form a film, which is why it is so wind-around-the-rotating-parts-able.

From what I gleaned over the years, It seems that the lateral tornado inside the crankcase caused by the crank could influence the actual pool of oil in the pan to get twisted around the crank, or at least that was my perception of the information. It reminds me of sticking a spoon in some Nutella and twisting it. Tarbaby in the making, maybe?

Having said all that, I admire Dodge yet again for including a windage tray right in the engine design. It interrupts the vortex that the crank tries to form, and prevents it from blowing across Lake Petroleum in the oil pan and whipping it into a rogue wave of clingy oil, looking for a hug from the crank.

BTW, I theorize that that is why the new Hellcats have a lower oil fill mark on the dipstick than the former ones with (reportedly) exactly the same-size oil pans. I bet they found that it was a bit too much oil hanging around outside the local convenience store with not much to do but hitch rides on passing crank throws.
 


Last edited:

hellno

3000 Posts Club
8 Second Best E/T
HFCOTM
Member ID
#1308
Messages
3,309
Reactions
5,754
Likes
302
City
memphis
State
TN
Country
United States
Vehicle
2016 challenger hellcat
#13
Yes it’s me :)

No, only took a few seconds to find

Grab a beer and Watch this on a big TV


With cranks being deep in the block anymore make it harder to scrape them clear of oil anymore but engineers still do a good job at it.
ABSOLUTELY LOVED THE VIDEO AND NOW KNOW I CAN DO MY SUPERCHARGER BEARINGS MYSELF IF I EVER HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THEM :)
 


PurpleCat16

Member
Founding Member
Member ID
#185
Messages
25
Reactions
42
Likes
12
State
WA
Country
United States
#14
BTW, I theorize that that is why the new Hellcats have a lower oil fill mark on the dipstick than the former ones with (reportedly) exactly the same-size oil pans. I bet they found that it was a bit too much oil hanging around outside the local convenience store with not much to do but hitch rides on passing crank throws.
It is actually the other way around the '15 & '16 dipsticks were marked for 1 Qt less than the '17 and later dipsticks.
 


Jack_Toepfer

3000 Posts Club
Founding Member
Premium Account
Donating Member
Member ID
#966
Messages
3,294
Reactions
6,589
Likes
252
City
Buffalo
State
NY
Country
United States
Vehicle
2016 Dodge Charger Triple Black
#15
@coolblue - Curious as to why you think it doesn't matter anymore. Did you see something that said that it didn't?
It's increasingly more important, as seen here on our stock factory motors, that windage is in the list of things that the OEMs are taking seriously.
 


HRJ

Active Member
Founding Member
Member ID
#1045
Messages
478
Reactions
1,043
Likes
117
City
Houston
State
TX
Country
United States
Vehicle
Porsche GT3
#16
Having said all that, I admire Dodge yet again for including a windage tray right in the engine design. It interrupts the vortex that the crank tries to form, and prevents it from blowing across Lake Petroleum in the oil pan and whipping it into a rogue wave of clingy oil, looking for a hug from the crank.
:) lol well said
 


Marc W

3000 Posts Club
Founding Member
U.S. Navy Veteran
Firefighter
8 Second Best E/T
HFCOTM
Member ID
#993
Messages
3,247
Reactions
10,266
Likes
302
City
St. George
State
UT
Country
United States
Vehicle
2016 Dodge Challenger Hellcat
HFCOTM
View Images
#17
The Gen 3 Hemi comes with a windage tray that prevents the oil sling that is a issue. Light weight oils with anti foaming formulas all address the issues that they had back in the good old days. But every little “hot rod” trick helps. My billet crank has been polished in the area that engages the oil. The smoother it is the less it will carry. Attention to detail is horsepower. :cool: FFD7335E-6D7E-4248-8CD6-97825D5FD972.jpeg
 


Jimmy N.

5000 Posts Club
Founding Member
Member ID
#996
Messages
5,431
Reactions
10,404
Likes
352
City
Lumberton
State
NM
Country
United States
Vehicle
'18 Challenger
#18
Engine Masters (Freiburger) had an interesting episode that showed (on a dyno) how much power and oil pressure was lost with too much oil in the pan.
Even the recommended amount was too much at times.
 


Marc W

3000 Posts Club
Founding Member
U.S. Navy Veteran
Firefighter
8 Second Best E/T
HFCOTM
Member ID
#993
Messages
3,247
Reactions
10,266
Likes
302
City
St. George
State
UT
Country
United States
Vehicle
2016 Dodge Challenger Hellcat
HFCOTM
View Images
#19
Engine Masters (Freiburger) had an interesting episode that showed (on a dyno) how much power and oil pressure was lost with too much oil in the pan.
Even the recommended amount was too much at times.
There was a discussion with the engine builder/tuner for the Factory Stock Drag Pak that Leah is driving. He said that to be competitive, when it came down to the final round for the win.... they would drain oil and run low even if it meant damaging the motor to get to the finish line first.
 


OP
coolblue

coolblue

1000 Posts Club
Founding Member
Donating Member
Member ID
#1172
Messages
1,577
Reactions
2,695
Likes
162
City
Long Island
State
NY
Country
United States
Vehicle
2019 Redeye
Thread Starter #20
@coolblue - Curious as to why you think it doesn't matter anymore. Did you see something that said that it didn't?
It's increasingly more important, as seen here on our stock factory motors, that windage is in the list of things that the OEMs are taking seriously.
Glad to see this old thread still has some life! What I meant was, why doesn't it matter to the guys (and gals) who are into the high perf racing scene and building engines. You NEVER see this brought up in a motor conversation anymore or a racing thread or a build thread.(unless it's a secret...not going there again). I mean it's inescapable. You throw liquid in the air around, or directly at a whirling assembly spinning at great velocity and it's gonna get caught up in the assembly and cause drag. The windage tray is great. It's an old reliable (and cheap) proven method of lessening the rope affect and keeping oil from getting sucked back up into the assembly. I'm all for that, and great the factory provides it. But what about everything else? The oil squirters are above the pan. You can't escape that. So no matter how well the windage tray works, the oil is introduced above it. If you build a dedicated race motor for 1/4 mile work , are they really needed? Has any one put plugs in block and built one long term? Scrapers; not a valid idea anymore? I dk, no one seems to use'm anymore. I personally know a friend who put a vacuum pump on a customers BB Chevy racecar and it pulled another 25hp from the motor because it relieved the pressure in the bottom of the motor and the rings sealed better. So if you did some extra detail build work and used a vacuum pump and a competent oil control system, pulling another 50 "free" HP not worth it?
I'm simply gonna chalk this up to 'necessary evil'. The squirters cool the pistons and lube everything so they are for sure adequately lubricated even if there's a loss of HP. On a supercharged engine I'll say yes I get it. But Mopar provided these on naturally asperated engines before the Hellcat. Chevy and Ford seem to do ok without them. :unsure:.
 


Last edited:


Top